Using the Power of Tech to Skyrocket Law Firm Profits

Richard James: [: 00:00:00

I know, he's the younger, prettier version in the smiley face on this whole thing, and he asks really good questions, so I do my best today to keep up with him. We've got a great call planned for you today. We're interviewing a company called Four Eyes and one of the best parts about Four Eyes.

Full disclaimer. By the way, I'm a shareholder in this company. And you should know that because I've invested my own actual dollars in this firm because of the good that they do for law firms. But I really want, this is not a promotional call. This isn't me telling you about Four Eyes. So you go do business with Four Eyes.

or of Four Eyes, and they're [: 00:01:00

So, Rusty, Sam. Welcome to today's pod.

Rusty Speedy: Hey, happy to be here, Rich. This is awesome. I wish I was the Michael little bit more, but this is a good second place I would.

Richard James: I get it. I'm second. I'm always runner up, but that's okay. That's okay. I'll take it. He is my kid, so he can have first place. Good to see you, Sam.

Sam Black: You too, thank you for having us.

Richard James: Yeah, absolutely. So just, you know, to kick this off, tell everybody a little bit about this whole entrepreneurial journey of Four Eyes, how it got started, what did that look like? Why don't you give us some insight there.

law firm owner. He was more [: 00:02:00

So software engineer turned entrepreneur a little bit more.

Richard James: Mm-hmm.

years now. Started in: 2003

Richard James: So, I know that you said that you weren't the entrepreneur, but you gotta know that, and you've worked with enough attorneys to know this, that they can actually relate to that because most of them weren't entrepreneurs either. Many of them didn't actually know that they were gonna have their own practice when they went into law.

They might thought, they were gonna work for a law firm forever, and then they saw, you know, the light at the end of the tunnel of being their own business. But yeah, I mean, you know, as the co-founder of this company. You had to have some sort of entrepreneurial spirit to be willing to take that leap, wouldn't you say?

I was not expecting to do as [: 00:03:00

But here we are, so I'm having a great time with it.

Richard James: Coding away. Burt just slides some food under the door for you so you can eat every now and then. Got it. A bucket in food and 24 hours later we've got a product. Awesome. So, Sam, how about you? You, really got your start in marketing and customer service, and that's how you found your way into helping Rusty, is that right?

Sam Black: Yes, that's correct. I've been with us, for about four years. So my background is originally in marketing, but as I'm, I talk to law firms and law firm owners all day and it's kind of hard to stay in just marketing. So we end up talking about all kinds of aspects of the law firm as well.

an, your entire day has been [: 00:04:00

Sam Black: All day long. Yes.

Richard James: All day long. All right, good. And so you say that with some trepidation or some sorrow.

No, I'm just kidding. I know you love all of your clients and you would never say anything bad about talking to them all day long. That's all you want to do is talk to lawyers all day long. So let's pivot into this next concept. So we love to talk about success and origin.

But well, before I go there real quick, Rusty, so just to set the foundation, why did Bert found this company, this tech company.

. One thousand, five hundred,: 1500

So you know, I have some nostalgia, but we were literally [00:05:00] above a lingerie store. You had to go through this little door, go up some stairs above a lingerie store, and it was like a three room office. And really it was two rooms and a conference room we shared with somebody else. And I was in the break room with two other guys.

One of them was my brother, one of them was a law clerk. We had, and you know, we still had fun. I mean, we were working on cases. I thought I wanted to be a lawyer back then. You guys worked way too hard. So, you know, I started quickly working on the tech stuff, but yeah, just where that went. I mean, now.

You know, we're in multiple, or I say we, I mean I still do a lot with it, but the law firm's in multiple states, you know lot of offices, you know, I think we went from that to about 10 million a year and we're gonna keep going. So, you know, it's really exciting. But yeah, the,

Richard James: From working from above a lingerie store to 10 million a year and all that journey has been really fueled by the technical growth. Would you agree with that?

nk so. I definitely, really, [: 00:06:00

Richard James: Yeah, no, I think having, I've always said like having a technical team on your team or having a partner that's a technical team is like having a magic wand at your disposal. As a business owner, you're really, you can do amazing things with technology these days and if you don't know how to do it, or you're the business owner, you're trying to do it yourself, is tune up a lot of time.

And so having that person or that team that you can rely on to help you accomplish these goals to me it's a real competitive advantage. But so how did, what happened? What's the pivot from the law firm to the software then? Like talk, walk me through that.

Rusty Speedy: Yeah. So again, I'm gonna try to condense it a little bit, but we, you know, like a lot of people, we had practice management software. We had a CRM, which we track our, you know, the people who contact us maybe want to hire us. And there were some things there that we wanted to do but couldn't do.

se this, something called an [: 00:07:00

And so when we did that coincidentally we started going to your events Rich and you know, you were giving us stuff like the 11 steps, the PCLC, you know, tracking the sales process, and we're like, okay.

How can we get that stuff into here so we can look at it and see who's doing everything. And so we did, we started putting all those numbers together and, you know, we started noticing some weaknesses and yeah, I mean that was really the big thing.

Richard James: Sam, did you catch that? Rusty said it was all my fault.

Sam Black: I did call yes, yes.

Richard James: Yeah, basically that's what happened there. So I get, full responsibility for this mess that we've created. Okay. If it's a success, Rusty, you get it. If it's a mess, I get it. How about that?

Rusty Speedy: But yes. I love that, I love that. I think we'll keep that going.

na unpack something that you [: 00:08:00

Rusty Speedy: Yeah, so like we started looking at the data without getting too much in the PCLC and all that good stuff we saw one of our big weaknesses was phones. You know, we get all these phone calls. What happened to them? We didn't know, you know, we'd hear the, we'd hear the receptionist in the other room talking to everybody.

But, you know, was it a current client? Was it somebody who wanted to hire us? Who knows? Maybe the receptionist hated us and just told everybody to go hire the competitor across the street. But yeah. And Sam, I don't know, you know the number. I don't know if you wanna talk about like, what the set. Right.

cause we were able to make a [: 00:09:00

So our agents were able to pre-qualify, is this person, you've been able to hire the firm. So after looking at just those couple things. Our set rate improved from about 40% to 80%.

Rusty Speedy: I gotta jump this too, Burt loves to say this and it's true. You know, he said over 18 months we had literally a increase of revenue of a million dollars, which back then was crazy. That was probably about an 80% increase that is wild.

Richard James: Right, right.

Rusty Speedy: Yeah. So that got us excited.

Richard James: Yeah. Well, so like, you would obviously think that it would, right? But the what's interesting to me is, okay, so we had this software, but then we had these phones and we didn't know how they all integrated together. So that was the one thing you were trying to integrate together.

ing to be all excited. I got [: 00:10:00

He said, but the problem is I can't get everybody to do it all the time. He said, so we've developed this software and I wanna show you. And that's how we embarked on this journey together. And, that's what got me the most excited. And so, yeah, I agree. I think that's right.

I think the other thing I would say is they have a lot of law firms have a hard time figuring out where the CRM stops and the matter management picks up and figuring out how to make those bridges. That's a big challenge for some law firms as well. But all those, again, technical challenges that sometimes can be solved and sometimes can't be solved. So as you're going on this journey, what was your biggest failure point as you're now building a software company and maybe the law firm, whichever one, what, I don't know. Which store you wanna lean on more, but what was your biggest failure point?

e was trying to do too much. [: 00:11:00

But a lot of that stuff didn't really move the needle for us, right? Like, we got a little bit more into coaching agents and stuff like that, but you can't really scale that without hiring a bunch of people. So I would say like that was the biggest problem, is like we kept throwing stuff at people, but it was too much.

Richard James: Hmm. Okay. So what was the other side of that? What, like little throwing less using tech. What fixed this?

Rusty Speedy: Yeah. So you know, these guys are busy, right? So it really was focusing on the things that were going to make the most difference.

you were testing everything [: 00:12:00

And so you were finding that what you were, the data points and the moving parts you were giving them was overwhelming to them and it was trying to do too much at one time. Is that what you're finding?

Rusty Speedy: Yeah, exactly.

Richard James: Ah, okay. That makes more sense. Sam, did you find that to be true on the front lines of customer service when you were talking to client?

Sam Black: Absolutely. I think talking to clients, they have this long wishlist of projects and things that they wanna build and do and like, I would love to do this or this. And we used to joke about it and I think it's become reality. But we used to be like, is it gonna make you more money? And I think it started off as a joke, but we now ask too, like is this gonna help make the process more efficient?

Is it gonna make staff better? And finding if the answer's no to those, I don't know if it's worth prioritizing resources over.

t it was too much to give to [: 00:13:00

So is it fair to say Rusty and Sam that, you know, you were also giving DLO too much to do at once too, and not being able to focus, really hurt the ability to grow there as well?

Rusty Speedy: Oh, for sure. And you know, as you guys probably know, as you grow, management becomes a big problem, right? Like you have to manage all this stuff. So you might give them, you know, Hey, do this, do this, do this. They might retain, you know, one outta five of those things and actually do it.

And you know, even as the firm owner, even when I come up with this stuff, they might not do. 80% of it, and then I have to sit here and go back and look and then, you know, a month later I get mad that they didn't do it, but it, you know, it wasn't really their fault. Right? Like, I wasn't making sure they were doing it and it apparently didn't matter that much.

the number one breakthrough, [: 00:14:00

Rusty Speedy: So, definitely in some ways for the law firms, right? Like it was definitely simplifying. The other big piece of that was, you know what I'm gonna go with? Definitely, it was simplifying, right? Let's focus on, and I know this is kind of a dirty word, but the sales process, right?

Like, let's focus on these big things that a lot of these law firms, sometimes they're kind of struggling, I'm not gonna say struggling, but, you know, revenues and expenses are kind of balancing out at the end of every month. So the biggest thing that we could do to keep them happy and to keep them in our realm is to give them a quick win.

d more. But staying there, I [: 00:15:00

Richard James: Interesting. So, Sam, do you agree as you were talking to your clients and starting to find ways to get them a win, that paying attention to that sales process, using software to enhance the sales process, measure the sales process, focus on the sales process is really where you started to see the biggest wins.

Sam Black: Oh, absolutely, yes. Once you started focusing on that and like what the bottleneck was in that process and then really pinpointing that, then it made all the difference for a lot of law firms.

Richard James: Okay, so secret question, well, not secret question, but question here that's gonna reveal maybe the truth about what you believe. What did law firms actually want to do?

Rusty Speedy: We joke about this around the office too. It's like a, you know, those romantic novels that you get, if it was an attorney, it would be all about workflow, right? Like, I want to manage a case without having to touch it. Which, you know, if you try hard enough, you might get pretty close, but you're gonna have to try really, really hard.

e not getting clients in, it [: 00:16:00

Richard James: Interesting. So Sam, did you find that to be true? As you were starting to work with the attorneys and trying to drive them towards sales, they kept trying to pull you back towards workflow? That's what they want it?

Sam Black: Yeah. It's funny how everyone that you kind of get to know their personalities after a while and people love to talk about certain things and you try to steer them and then they're like, no, well, I don't wanna talk about that. Let's focus on this. Like, everyone has their kind of like things or subject that they wanna talk about, and that's not necessarily what they need to be looking at.

Richard James: Do you think it's a fair statement that those attorneys that are willing to or get fired up about sales and selling seem to outstrip the ones who want to focus on workflow and the way of success if we're measuring success, is a profitability?

As much as I hate to say it. [: 00:17:00

And so, yeah, those guys who ran it, these are the guys that want to grow, you know, your entrepreneurial attorneys. And so those guys are all about it. And those are definitely our best clients, our most successful clients. Diener Law is of them, right? So I agree.

Richard James: Well, I mean, look, and Bert has shared this story. Diener Law's story was that he really didn't make any profit. He, matter of fact, lost money even though he was doing million plus dollars a year in the beginning. And then he found us and then he started honing his systems and figured out a way to get profitable through our guidance and his action.

And then obviously leveraged that into starting to figure out how to leverage it more through software. And here we are in this journey together. But you know, a lot of law firms in the beginning, especially when they come into our world or your world they're not as profitable. Heck, I was talking to a law firm the other day, was doing $7 million a year, and I'm like, what problem do you wanna solve?

he's like, well, I'd like to [: 00:18:00

So, you know, when you help simplify and let them focus on the things that actually make them money and help them be profitable that's a big step in the right direction. So let's talk about, how about you guys? You know, so when you think about what keeps you going, cause obviously you've got a wave in front of, you gotta fight through the wave of the law firms that wanna focus on things you don't want them to focus on.

You gotta fight through the wave of, you know, all the things with software and everything that you do you know, and their employees and all that stuff. There's a lot of things coming at you. What is the success quote or thought that keeps you going, that motivates you every day? Rusty.

y guiding principle. And you [: 00:19:00

And then when performance is measured and reported back. The rate of that improvement accelerates. So when we talk about sales processes, we talk about calls, we talk about any of this stuff, it's we have to find out how things are working. We have to get the data that we need.

Richard James: Yeah. So by the way, to address the elephant in the room, this idea that we can't ignore workflow because if you sell a whole bunch of new clients, you gotta get the work done. And so that quote that you just gave some version of when performances measured, performance improves.

you see that to be true? As [: 00:20:00

Sam Black: Yeah, I mean, I think it just comes to like data efficiency and results and then making decisions using that data. And I've worked for a software company for four years and I still don't know if it's data or data, so.

Richard James: I don't, I guess it depends on whether you're in Europe or America, I guess, I suppose. Good, so let's talk about personal success habits, cause you guys have to stay on the ball, you've gotta keep your energy up, you know, you gotta stay disciplined not only on adhering to your schedule and everything. Let's start with you this time, Sam.

What's one of your personal success habits that keep you going every day?

g to plan my week and my day [: 00:21:00

Richard James: Yeah, great. That's great. I love it. Rusty, how about you? What is a success habit for you that has contributed to your success?

Rusty Speedy: Yeah, I'd say I was in same boat. And this goes back to, you know, when I first started working with Bert High School with intuition and just kind of, you know, taking whatever the big thing was at the moment, running with it. But I actually read a book. It was called "Getting Things Done" by David Allen. It's kind of older now.

Richard James: Yeah, it's a great book.

Rusty Speedy: Back then, it was cool. Right? Yeah. And that definitely changed how I approached work and kind of life in general, right? You know, I got all this stuff coming at me, I have to figure out what's important, what's not. So I have to constantly think about this, you know, what's important, what's not, what may be important.

And then, you know, kinda putting in a different buckets and saying, okay, I'm gonna do this right now. I'm gonna do this tomorrow. Or, hey, maybe it'll be nice one day to do that. And,

Richard James: So you're running that Eisenhower box constantly with all your tasks, is what you're doing, is that right?

I'm trying to remember what [: 00:22:00

Right, if possible.

Richard James: That's great. I love it. Good. Okay, how about a book? What, you saw, you told me one book. Is that like your go-to book or do you have another one that you, that like supports this whole concept that you work at? Because I can hear by the way, there's a theme, right?

There's a, there's numbers, there's measurement, there's data, there's list, there's checklists. I mean, by the way, we just freaked like half of the audience out there like, wait, I like English and words and I don't like math and I don't love checklists. And you know, that's not how they think.

And then there's other attorneys that are listening that are like geeking out. They're like, oh yeah, these are my people. And so, you know, whatever. Hopefully it helps somebody. But what is a goal that speaks to this for you? Or sorry, what is a book that speaks this for you?

Rusty Speedy: Yeah. I would say I kind of sympathize with the guys who can't listen to math. I mean, I would sit in math class, just stare at the wall and I do this stuff every day. But yeah, there is a book. And you just said goal, it's called "The Goal".

Richard James: Oh, okay. Cool. All right got it.

Eliyahu Goldratt. It's like, [: 00:23:00

That one thing that if we made this a little bit bigger, everything else would go through faster. And so what that book does, it's a business parable. It's a story, so it,

Richard James: That's what I love about it. It's a story. They took this massive concept of constraint theory and they turned it into a story. I thought it was great.

Rusty Speedy: It is great. And yeah. So I would say that is really what we focus on and I think about that thing all the time. Like pretty much every day I think about something else, I don't, there's a story in there where they talk about, I'm not gonna get too crazy into it but like a backpack trip. I tell that story all the time, like probably once a week.

Richard James: That's when he was with the scouts or whatever with his kid.

xactly. Yeah. And it's like, [: 00:24:00

Richard James: Yeah. No, it was perfect. I love it. It well, and that speaks to every process in the firm, from marketing lead generation, and sales all the way through the workflow.

But Sam, how about you? You still, are you like Eliyahu Goldratt nerd, like Rusty, or do you have another book that you know is your favorite?

Sam Black: Rich, just to get this job. I think I had a list of books to read before I even started, so yeah. One of them, definitely "The Goal", but also "Expert Secrets" I read which, I was coming into this job and I think it taught me so much about startups and everything that I really,

Richard James: "Expert Secrets" you said. Was that Brandon Burchard who was expert secrets.

Sam Black: Russell Brunson.

Richard James: I don't remember. We'll find it for them put them in the notes for them. Expert secret. So you, that's, and just about the whole idea and the concept of building into a startup business and the startup mentality. Is that right?

Sam Black: Yes, definitely.

Richard James: Awesome.

Like, okay, the company, we [: 00:25:00

But as a business, what are you guys fired up for? What is your, you know, big hairy, audacious goal, your BHAG, what's something you're looking forward to?

Rusty Speedy: Yeah, I mean, two different ways. Personally, I just love solving business problems. So, you know, it's kinda like a puzzle almost, right? But higher stakes, obviously for both clients, and you know, monetary value for the firm owners and everybody that works there. So, you know, I feel like that's important, but.

We also get cool projects out of it. So one of the cooler ones, and everybody's heard about this by now, I'm sure, or maybe not everyone, but the Chat GPT open AI kind of thing is something we started looking at recently. Working with somebody who's doing it for, you know, legal document processing for contracts.

kind of do that. Definitely [: 00:26:00

Richard James: Well, sure. Because you guys are, you know, right now you're throwing humans at it, right?

And you're growing so darn fast. I mean, I think you guys had 860 appointments last week or something like that. I mean, that's a big number, right? So, you know, if you're running that many appointments, theoretical, you know, I'm boiling it all the way down to how many of those show, how many of those retained ended up with, you know, some four or five, 600 clients a month.

That's you know, six, 7,000 clients a year. That's a lot of humans. It's like not, I don't mean clients. I mean, it's a lot of humans to do all that lifting. It feels like you're building the pyramids and just getting a bunch of people to lift the big rocks. I mean, that's one way to do it. The other way is to figure out how to leverage technology, right? So, yeah.

on it? How can we make sure [: 00:27:00

So yeah, we're now using and again, this, none of this is new, but we're using big data platforms. We're leveraging some of those visualization platforms that everyone's heard of to really put that stuff together where our managers in the firm can look at that. And so building that middle management structure, I think has been one of the more transformative things.

But in order to do that, especially when you have so many people working in the firm, it's like, I don't know, a couple hundred now, Sam might know. Then you have to know who's doing well, who isn't.

Richard James: Yeah. It's screens on the ceiling, on the, you know, hanging from the ceiling or data on your watch. You can look at, okay, your department is on track to hit their goals this hour. Right? I mean, that's when you get that big, that's what happens. Now, not every firm of every size needs to do that, but some version of it, whether they do it every week or every month or whatever, based on the size of their firm, the more they pay attention to this and the easier you can make it.

know you don't own the firm, [: 00:28:00

Sam Black: Yeah, I think helping people. And as cheesy as that sounds like, I really feel like what we're doing is making a difference. So if I can help with marketing or with sales or reaching out to more people to help them I think it makes it worth it for me. However, I, fit into that.

Richard James: I don't think it's cheesy at all. At all, I think that I know you well enough to know that you're sincere in that answer, cause some people might go, oh my gosh, here she goes. No, but I mean, I think that's a really good answer and you and I.

You've heard me say this before, that I think that law firms really do God's work because the way that they help people, you know, there's not a law firm on the planet that really doesn't help people in some traumatic, dramatic situation. And when they fix it really has a massive impact on that individual's life.

accomplish those goals, the [: 00:29:00

And we just know that if we get that right and we can put appointment setters in people's law firms and they do a better job of setting the appointment, getting more leads to convert over to clients, so on and so forth, that we fundamentally are helping more people. So I too feel like I live vicariously through them, through the things that we do.

So I'm with you, Sam. I'm a hundred percent with you. Let's ask this Rusty, if you go back and give some advice to your younger self, what would it be? We shouldn't have any regrets, but what kind of advice should you should give?

Rusty Speedy: Yeah. I was actually, I had a conference once and there's a guy named Tony Hsieh who was the CEO of Zappos. Unfortunately, he passed.

Richard James: I just read an article about him in Forbes this month. How he also went a little crazy in between when he was trying to go to where was it? He was trying to go to another city and make it like he was trying to do Vegas and turn it into like this little city.

[: 00:30:00

Rusty Speedy: Yeah, he actually got into the Vegas city thing when we were up there too. But at least when it came to business he did say he wouldn't do anything different necessarily. He would just do it faster.

And there are definitely things I might do differently now. But I think one of the things that slowed me down and probably slows a lot of people down is that kind of fear of failure and treating. Failure might not be the right word, but not getting exactly what you expect.

You know, putting a lot of time and effort into something and not getting anything out of it. It's something I think I struggled with. But again, I'm going into a bunch of people I've heard talk. Another guy I know named Keith Cunningham, he once said, he said this when I was on, when he was on stage as well.

Making mistakes is inevitable. Admitting them and learning the lesson is optional. So that's really what I try to do these days is, you know, if something doesn't work, how I think it should work. Kind of really analyze it and figure out why. And you know, strangely enough, that's personal as well, right?

[: 00:31:00

Richard James: Well, if you figure the answer to that question out, you're gonna be a very, very wealthy man.

Rusty Speedy: Still working at it.

Richard James: Yeah, yeah. Nobody, yeah. Nope. And you're gonna have a happy like sorry, sorry, Maria. If you're listening to this, I have figured it out. I do my best. You are amazing. You have no flaws whatsoever.

Sorry. That's my message to you. Yes, so Sam, how about you? What, what advice would you give to your younger self if you could?

Sam Black: I think if something isn't working, change it. And I think that's like for my personal life as well as in career as well. If it's something isn't working with a person or a job or a system in that job or something like that, change it. Don't just, sit with it.

u would give advice to those [: 00:32:00

Rusty Speedy: So there's so much you can do, right? I will say if you're not tracking kind of your sales processes or even handling your case management in a technology oriented way, maybe is how I'd put it. So usually we talk about these things called CRMs, practice Management Systems.

I can name names if you want me to. I'll name them. It doesn't really matter which one it is, as long as it, you know, works. But the big thing when people are picking these out, so let's say these are, I said, I was gonna say like a Cleo or PracticePanther. My case, you know, you guys probably know these words.

Richard James: Sure.

Rusty Speedy: They have to have something called an, it needs to be cloud-based. So you don't wanna store all this. Personal identifying information yourself, you know, there's a lot of liability there. I'm not gonna say a lot. You guys are lawyers, you know? But there's liability there and also a cost.

to hang onto that, manage it.[: 00:33:00

And so you wanna make sure it has something called an API. If you ever Google which system you wanna do, Google that and API and make sure you get good results. And the reason is that you can use things like Zapier for those people who wanna do that for low cost. Do do-it-yourself stuff. You can definitely do that.

But it's for things like, I want my phone calls to go into my CRM. You know, that's something you can do pretty easily if they have an API. But if they don't, you're gonna have to start entering that stuff manual. You're gonna start hiring people to do it.

So yeah, and that is the big start for most of these firms. Getting that sales process locked in and being able to measure it. You can't do it unless you're entering the information in some kind of system.

space system. It's a great, [: 00:34:00

Sam Black: Yeah, I would say in a more general sense, don't just buy software just to have it, like you have to actually use it and you have to know how to use it. And then like, you know, spitting out numbers at you or reports or whatever, knowing how to read those two. Because I feel like so many firms that I talk to and me personally, like, oh, I have this cool, fancy new software and they're not using it or learning from it either.

Richard James: Yeah, great. So it don't just buy it to buy it cause somebody says you should have it if you're gonna invest in it. Invest not only your money, but your time to learn it and put it in play and figure out how it really works at its Optum in your firm. Okay, so just really quick for short little commercial, for the benefit of you, you guys are, as I understand it, software agnostic.

of you, what is it that you [: 00:35:00

Rusty Speedy: Yeah. So I'd say the big thing is like we talked about, all everybody has big dreams, big ideas of things they wanna do. We implement those, right? So we're technology. We write software. If you want your phone system to put phone calls into your CRM, we would help you do that.

And you know, there's a lot more that we do. You heard me talking about the other things that we're working on right now, but yeah. You come talk to us, you ask us, Hey this is something I want to do and we'll tell you whether or not it's worth it. You know, we talk about, Hey, this is gonna move the needle.

Do you think this is gonna move the needle? Is it worth that time? That energy, Sam was talking about, the different software that you're gonna use and, you know, the investment, the monetary investment. To make that happen. So, you know, we get people, current clients still all the time, just say, Hey, can I, you know, borrow you for five minutes when I go to your events, Rich?

now, get a lot of experience [: 00:36:00

Richard James: Yeah, and it's more than just, Hey, you wanna do this project? Okay, you can hire us to do it. What I heard there is, Sam, you can correct me if I'm wrong on the customer facing side of this. You guys are really advising as to.

You know, maybe this isn't the best decision, and while I appreciate you wanting to hire us to do that for you, I think there might be another area you want to focus on. is that an accurate statement?

Sam Black: Oh yeah, for sure we can do this. But if we do it, this is gonna happen is a lot of what we say. So it's kind of, and we learn that through trial and error with working so closely with Diener Law and with other firms that yes, we can do it, but does that mean we should.

Rusty Speedy: Yeah, you can do almost anything, right? Like that's the exciting part about it. But you know.

a great call today. I really [: 00:37:00

But most importantly, some of the things that they should think about or avoid as they're going down their path of growing their law firm or figuring out how to get more business in the door. Let's focus on sales, not workflow. So thanks for sharing your time today. I know everybody's busy. Rusty. Appreciate you, Sam. I appreciate you both.

Rusty Speedy: Yeah. Thanks for having us again, Rich. Always a pleasure to talk to you. I'm sure we will again here soon, so yeah. We'll keep going with this stuff.

Sam Black: Thank you, Rich. I appreciate it.

Richard James: All right, everybody. That wraps up another episode of Your Practice Mastered Pod, and I'm sure your favorite guest "MPS" or host, sorry, we'll be back soon. And you'll get to enjoy both his wonderful silky smooth voice and pretty face. And you didn't have to stare at this the whole time.

ll something. Would you? All [: 00:38:00