Mastering the Business Side of Law | YPM Podcast

Seth Holliday: [: 00:00:00

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Welcome to Your Practice Master Podcast

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MPS: Hey, law firm owners. Welcome to the Your Practice Master Podcast. We're your hosts. I'm MPS.

Richard James: I'm Richard James and MPS Today. We've got another fantastic guest. They're friends. They're members, they're also past EAY champions, and they did so in dramatic fashion just a couple of years ago. We got to watch their growth over the years and then they finally decided to apply and wham, they won. They were voted most popular.

Not most popular. They voted EAY by a popular vote of their members.

Introducing Bart and Seth: EAY Champions

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r sharing your wisdom. We're [: 00:01:00

And maybe you're gonna be able to capture one nugget outta what you say today to give them feeling of hope. That they're headed in the right direction as they're running a law firm, 'cause as you well know, this stuff isn't easy. But you've made it look easier than it probably is.

So we're excited to hear your story. So thanks for being with us today.

Seth Holliday: Thanks for having us.

Bart Solomon: You're so welcome.

MPS: Of course.

Icebreaker: Unveiling Personal Stories

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MPS: And hey look, I'm not sure if you've guys had the opportunity to listen into any of the previous ones, but we like to kick off with an icebreaker. So, this goes to both of you. You could do it together or individually of course, but what is maybe something that not everybody knows about you?

I don't know, the nine early: 1990

But I [: 00:02:00

'cause I was an idiot.

Bart Solomon: I don't understand how someone from a farm does that.

Seth Holliday: I was raised on an Alabama farm. We didn't have swamps, or dancing boots.

Bart Solomon: Since you mentioned dancing, I might as well just say I've been consumed over the last few months with Dancing with the Stars. So I'm gonna be doing ballroom dancing and a crazy skit here in a month.

And ballroom dancing.

Richard James: don't, Why don't you give 'em a shameless plug apart with what that charity is so everybody knows in case they

Bart Solomon: want.

s the charity is the Primary [: 00:03:00

Richard James: So you are, you are the star and you have a professional dancer you're dancing with.

Seth Holliday: That's right.

Richard James: Yeah.

Seth Holliday: Just to let you guys know, he's doing a great job of raising money. I'm only serious about 2% of the time, but the charity is fabulous. We actually went through one of the places and walked through it and so he's done a really wonderful job and the money's going to a really wonderful charity.

Richard James: That's great. Well, Our donations coming in. I, keep wondering if Maria might be able to make it to the celebration, to the live performance. I don't think that's going to happen unfortunately with what she's got going on. But but anyway, we're certainly looking forward to seeing video afterwards.

Seth Holliday: Richard, He will, he will come to you.

Richard James: That's great. [: 00:04:00

Seth Holliday: For you, or if he won't do it, I will.

Richard James: That's great. And Seth, as or may not know, I got my first buck this year. it took me forty-one years of not forty-one years of hunting, forty-one years of waiting. I hunted for like seven years, from 12 to like 19, and never even basically saw a deer.

And then this year when I told that story to a buddy of mine who owns a bunch of land here in North Carolina, he goes, we're gonna change that this year. And he told me the same thing. Everybody always told me when I was hunting as a kid, oh, you're gonna see a lot of deer. You gotta be selective. And I'm like yeah, yeah, yeah. And of course, on the first day, in the first couple of hours, I was able to bag my first seven pointer. So, It

Seth Holliday: Seven pointer?

Richard James: Yeah, 40, 41 years.

MPS: Let's dance our way into learning a little bit more about their journey.

The Entrepreneurial Journey of Law Firm Owners

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MPS: Why don't you guys, again why don't you share individually your highlights of your entrepreneurial journey as a law firm owner, and then where you're at now, kind of how, how you're together now and how we got there?

f with the difficulty of the [: 00:05:00

I was not, having much of it because I, thought I was an attorney and then I was pretty special guy. Over the course of being at Richard James, understanding, you know, it is difficult to understand that your business is like anybody else, especially as an attorney, it is hard to let go of that ego and I've got a massive ego.

It took a while, Bart was pretty straightforward and this is where we should go. It took a while for me and it was a difficult transition and he was very helpful along that way. But it was a transition that I'm glad I made. So if you can let go of your ego of being an attorney, you're not, God, you're not even a demigod, but you're a business person trying to make money.

providing a service to your [: 00:06:00

Richard James: So,

The Importance of Ego Management in Business

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Richard James: Bart, I wanna hear your perspective on this too, but real quick on this mindset conversation about ego, so we all have it. Every one of us has it. and recently Michael and I, just a couple of nights ago we are in the professional coaching space. We are professional coaches, advisors, consultants.

This is what we do, but it's a business like any other. And we wanted to join in industry specific mastermind. And so we started seeking them out. And honestly, in many of the cases, there was a bit bunch of pride going, we already know this and this and this, and who's this guy or a gal to teach us, we feel like we've got it pretty dialed in.

ego was getting in the way. [: 00:07:00

MPS: Yeah. It was very easy to go down that path. But you're right. She was a very good sales rep and she really did help us get out of our own way. 'cause that was really the problem. We were in our own way. And I think we just finally came to the realization on that call that was the case, and if we wanted to see what we wanted to achieve happen, we had to get outta that way.

And so I think that was good.

Richard James: But to your point about not being a business owner, I was talking to a woman in our world. I won't name her, but I was talking to her last night in a separate meeting and she said, I went, I got my undergraduate, like in business administration. She goes, but for whatever reason, I never saw my law firm as a business.

ccount and things like that. [: 00:08:00

Understanding the Business Side of Law Practices

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Richard James: Bart, how about you along your journey here, did you have a similar feeling or was your experience different as you were taking this journey?

Bart Solomon: No, that's exactly where I was going. I was a finance major and as a senior I helped small businesses in town through the SBA develop business plans. And yet, when I opened my own law practice, I did none of that. Almost none of it. I did the bare necessities for a business and spent 95% of the time worrying about how to be a lawyer and 5% of the time thinking this was a business.

And it failed. It failed in four years. And, I look back and I just kick myself. It's not like I had a biology degree. What was I doing?

ent to get to where you are. [: 00:09:00

And Jim Rohn always says, never ask this question but I'm gonna ask it somewhat for you to maybe answer what you think the answer is for those listening. Why do you think that is? Why is it that lawyers, was it that they were just drilled into them by law school, that they were practitioners and they weren't in business and they were servants?

Was it the mentors that you had? What do you think the reason, this is a very common answer we get and I know there's somebody out there listening to this right now. They're on the cusp of thinking this is where they're supposed to go. And they're waiting with bated breath for you to answer, like, why, what do you think it is?

And then how did you break through it?

the professional class, the [: 00:10:00

And so, they try to give us a sense of accomplishment. They give us a sense of deference.

they talk to us in a certain way that makes us feel pretty good about ourselves. And so we get a sense from interacting with other people. We talk, we know how to talk somebody down.

because whatever we say goes.[: 00:11:00

So I think that is the core, especially with respect to attorneys as to why we think we're gods. Because people treat us like that, not because we are, because they're scared to engage us and for good reason. Because if they do, we'll take 'em out.

Richard James: Yeah. Yeah. You got black belt and verbal judo.

Seth Holliday: That's exactly right.

Bart Solomon: Yeah. I don't,

think of myself as a God, I don't think I came at it from that angle. I think it's a matter of I saw myself as a professional providing services to people and that if I did a good job more people would come to see me and that it was just going to be an organic thing that didn't require me to market, didn't require me to pay attention to the business side of things.

e. And also as we grew, it's [: 00:12:00

Things are not reproducible between 10 people as it is with one employee. And that we needed to treat that business-wise from a more professional standpoint.

I guess I, I don't, I may pretend to be a guy. I don't believe that either.

Richard James: Well,

You already said that only 2% of the time you're serious.

Seth Holliday: so,

but

I

think institutionalization, right? You are interacting, you probably have had some of the same issues, right? You guys are able to stand in front of lots of people, and speak. There's not a lot of people didn't do that, right? So

Richard James: And they're all lawyers.

Seth Holliday: So you have got to have had at some point this, I'm doing a pretty good job here.

o you must have some of the, [: 00:13:00

Just because you can do that doesn't mean you're a moral human being. Doesn't mean you care about other people. It doesn't mean you're good at golf. It doesn't mean anything, right?

Richard James: Well, We know the last one is true.

Seth Holliday: I'm talking about myself, not you. I.

MPS: So I'm curious, I think there was this was helpful. Like we learned the evolution of it. We learned the why.

The Aha Moment: Realizing the Need for Change

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MPS: What was like the flip of the switch for you? So what was that aha moment?

and I better start planning [: 00:14:00

So it for we're not for her. I wouldn't have turned my attention to running my business, having my business run more smoothly and giving myself more peace of mind. And now it's turned into I understand how to get the peace of mind and I, think I can really take this business and give it some wings. And it's not just freedom for me, it's, wow, I can, I know how to tune this thing up.

Seth Holliday: So that, Bart is, really good at, okay, he's really good at figuring out business systems or whatever. But that is the puzzle. If you can let go of being an attorney, God. The puzzle is a little scary for me.

li sci. You know what in the [: 00:15:00

It took me a long time to do that, but the puzzle in the machine shame is it's fantastic. It's amazing. It's fun. It's overwhelming at first. Because the firehose of information that he brought back from the first time he saw you guys blew me out the door. So you're gonna be overwhelmed. I certainly was.

And frankly, I, you know, sometimes I still am.

Richard James: I want to comment and then question. So first of all I think it's good news. MECIB, my East Coast Italian bride doesn't necessarily watch all of these, so, she won't necessarily hear me admit the fact that she has called me on the carpet in a good way more times than I care to admit. And so thank God for my better half.

n a regular basis. Sometimes [: 00:16:00

And then, the other thing I would say is, you know what you said Seth is that, you didn't say this, but I'm gonna say this, so I've said it before. Attorneys are naturally intelligent beings and so what my most fun, and Michael, you could comment on this as well. My most fun part of working with attorneys is once the light bulb goes off, the speed at which you guys and gals grab it and run with it is like a lot of fun to watch.

Because you are intelligent people like, I don't have to worry about whether you got the smarts to figure out what I'm laying down right. Or to pick up what I'm laying down. So once you get it and you're willing, the speed is awesome. And now Bart, you actually said you feel like. We could actually make this thing fly.

We've gone [: 00:17:00

Seth Holliday: We're trying to figure out a way to get him into that investor that, what do you call it? CEO, CEO. So that's what we just got off the Zoom meeting with somebody trying to figure out how to place Bart. He's a little older than I'm in that position. Not that I wouldn't be there helping him do that, but I'm only younger and I can, push the call.

Richard James: Well, And you just said it, you may not love the CEO role or figuring out the puzzle, and that's okay. You can have a COO operating the firm in that role. If that's what you need. Remember, you guys are in contingency, right? All of your business predominantly, it's contingency.

riencing, client acquisition [: 00:18:00

And that's without a home run coming in. And you're gonna have the free-flowing cash flow to be able to pay for that person at some point. Or you're gonna have the time and the runway if you can identify who that person might be now in your firm, who you could raise up to become that person to replace Bart in that role.

And so, there's no doubt in my mind you will get there.

Seth Holliday: I don't wanna replace Bar Bart would make a fantastic CEO he loves so I get it right. You have sometimes that you wanna completely replace yourself and maybe we'll be there. At some point, Richard, and MPS, I would like to do some of the things that I see some of the folks in the Partners Club doing, which is having fun.

Richard James: Yeah. Yeah. [: 00:19:00

As compared to most I would say large number of effective working hours as compared to most. Michael and I still live a fairly balanced life with the number of hours that we work, but the number of hours that we work, like the minutes we work per hour is very high percentage.

There's very little waste in our working hours. And that's what kind of allows us to do that. And you can't have a highly performing business and not have the owner, or the owners doing that over a longer period of time, at least I've never experienced anybody that could.

Michael, I don't know if I've gotten us a little off track here. Where do you want to go?

Daily Habits for Continued Success

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abit wise, that lead to your [: 00:20:00

The Struggle with Planning and Interruptions

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Bart Solomon: Planning out the day is important for me, tackling the, projects that listing the projects that need, that are urgent, that need to be done, making sure that I get to them as much as I can. I would say I still struggle with that a lot. It's hard because I in my position, I'm constantly interrupted.

I'm the one providing the information and the strategy for so many different cases. And so that's, a big struggle. Setting aside the time for our business meetings and making sure that it's on the calendar and that we do it because it's way too easy to just keep working the cases.

Richard James: Totally.

Bart Solomon: And so, that has really helped.

The Importance of Non-Fee Generating Meetings

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Seth Holliday: Non-fee generating meetings is the hardest thing to do consistently, and it makes all the difference in the world.

Richard James: We struggle with it too, guys. A you know, partnerships are tough, right? And I hand selected this one

Seth Holliday: Let's.

ys. But I will tell you that [: 00:21:00

Resetting Plans and Commitments

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Richard James: Matter of fact, just this week, Michael, you and I reset and said, okay, let's do a new plan. We've got so much we gotta get done. How about we make a commitment? We're gonna get up earlier. So like, I'm normally a 6:37, whatever am kind of guy. And now it's like, okay, what can I do to get up at 5:30 and be started get my morning routine and exercise and all that done?

So, I was like, I wanna start by 7:30. Michael's like, okay, how about if I promise we're at our desk by 8:00, right? Because I got, whatever. And so we compromise and we're like, okay, we're gonna commit to helping each other get to the desk by eight o'clock, working not eight o'clock, and start checking email.

No. Working on a project that's designated. And then, where are you and I gonna talk every day? And we had to be like, okay, here's where we're gonna talk every day. So we have a commitment of talking every day and where are we gonna have our planning meetings every week to make sure we're paying attention to what's going on.

And this is all [: 00:22:00

You're eight days and you haven't met, and then you're feeling this weirdness and emptiness and lack of direction, and you're wondering why, and you realize, oh, we skipped our meeting last week because you had to go to the dentist. Or whatever. I had to get my hair cut. That's a joke. you know, Whatever. so my point is it's not easy to do. And I will give you some advice if you want it.

Adapting to Challenges and Creating Solutions

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Richard James: So one thing I had to do because I actually built the first iteration of this business, my desire. So remember my life cycle was I owned the insurance business where I learned how to sell.

nd then I had the pet supply [: 00:23:00

And I learned like a massive level systems, but in each of those businesses, like, I just felt like, there was just so many things outta my control. And I, somebody said what do you want? Like my first mentor was like, what do you want? And I said, I want a business where I'm just the advisor. And so I have team members who have run the company, but they come to me and I give them the advice all day long.

I just wanna be a professional advisor to my own company. And so I built it that way. As you said, Bart, before you know it, all you're doing all day long is giving advice. All you're doing all day long is feeling somebody's coming into the office, putting a straw in the back of your skull and sucking, right?

That's what it feels like all day long. And so I had to figure out how to get a hold of this.

Implementing Open Office Hours

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I need to. Now we're down to [: 00:24:00

So I have two rules, no questions are allowed to be asked before that time. And the second rule is no questions allowed to be brought without a possible solution. And so they come to the office, open office hours, and if they come and go, what do you think? I go, that's not the right question. That's not how we frame it. Oh. Oh, here's what the challenge is. I think these are the two possible solutions. Which one do you think is better? Ah, now we've got something I can help you with. 'cause you've thought through it.

And so the moment I did that, I was able to free up, that X number of hours a day that I was working and I could do work on projects, or billable hour work, or as we say, whatever it was, without feeling was gonna be interrupted because I created a safe place for them to come to. And since we're not doing heart surgery, there's not oftentimes life-threatening things. There were always exceptions, especially in the law firm.

otely. So I said, listen, if [: 00:25:00

And if you're holding that piece of paper, you can interrupt anybody anywhere to interrupt them. But without that piece of paper, it has to be held until open office hours. It worked really well anyway.

Sharing Personal Experiences and Advice

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Richard James: Sorry, I didn't mean to get into consulting. I just thought it might be helpful for anybody else listening to this that felt the same way you were about to feel right now or you were feeling right now.

Bart Solomon: No, I think you're right. I think that I can set aside time for different things because I'm being approached on about business questions, but then I'm also being approached about how do I handle a case? How do I handle a case specific problem? Those are two different things, so I probably need different office hours for those different tasks.

Richard James: Could be,

Bart Solomon: Yeah.

Richard James: but in the beginning, just start with one of them. Just keep it simple and then it'll grow. You'll get addicted to it. It'll grow from there.

Bart Solomon: Right.

Richard James: Alright, Michael, sorry, put my consulting hat on. I apologize.

to this because I think it's [: 00:26:00

I wanna figure out what's got you guys excited?

Exploring New Business Opportunities

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MPS: What's got you fired up? Could be personal. Could be business. What's got you excited today?

Bart Solomon: Can I take that?

Seth Holliday: You certainly can.

Bart Solomon: So we have a business opportunity that's involving a new line of work, a new practice area one that could mean a significant growth, but also has a two to five year horizon on bringing in fees. And so this is a really big puzzle. And then in terms of how to build this, build it so that we don't go underwater as it's happening.

Have the capacity. So, I, feel like that I, can see the project, I can see the pieces now that I didn't use to be able to see. I can see the marketing side, I can see the intake side. I can see the capacity side from the workflow. And we can use all the other systems we built in the other practice areas to make it work.

But I [: 00:27:00

So that's gonna require a smart plan.

But I feel way more equipped to be able to do that than I ever have.

Richard James: Seth, are you also excited about that or is there something else?

Seth Holliday: That's why he interrupted me 'cause that would've started right in, he's Hey, can I talk for a second? 'cause you've been hogging this whole thing. Absolutely.

Building a Superstar Team

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Seth Holliday: That's what has got me excited. Basically, when we have our partners meetings, Bart and I, I'm talk about things like this.

It's where a lot of the magic happens, right? And a lot of times I'm sitting there thinking about things. I eventually just take the minutes 'cause Bart is, he's a visionary and can see a lot of these things and he just begins talking about here's where we need to go and here's how we, you know, it's really sort of the way in which we move forward as a is a business.

[: 00:28:00

But it is weird for me to see, 'cause law firms typically have a couple of really competent people and the rest of them are not. We've somehow been able to develop, four, or five different people who are now superstars, which is remarkable.

out the puzzle of business, [: 00:29:00

Let them see what was really happening in the business, what you were trying to do, participate in the journey by being in, your peer group meetings and things of that nature. So they see behind the curtain, so they, getting a full 360 degree view of the company.

to you. It's why you won the [: 00:30:00

Now the second thing I wanna talk about is you just said something that is really. I would say is the crown jewel of being a small business owner. The crown jewel of being a small business owner has got, I think, two basic categories. The first category is building a business that you actually don't wanna retire from, that you enjoy so much that you can see yourself doing for as long as you feel like doing something forever.

How many hours a week you feel like doing it? The second crown jewel that you have in a business is to have that business that you enjoy so much, provide enough excess that you can actually start to build a business that doesn't rely on you generating cash today, that you can do it right, that you can build it intelligently, take advice from the people, and then move.

ying and iterating. And it's [: 00:31:00

And that's a very enviable position. We know a few people in Partners Club are in that position. You're two of them. And so, congratulations to you yet again. So now here you are. You've built a great team that run great systems, and now you've got a business that's continuing to grow and gonna have better future cashflow, and now you're looking forward to building a new model and under a new product or service offering that's going to not yield you any income for a couple years.

Michael, I do have one kind [: 00:32:00

Because you guys are in contingency work, not in cash work. And so that answer is sometimes different from the people that are in cash work. Like they'll say well, I doubled my prices. That's not gonna be your thing. They say I collected more of the money that I, normally get paid.

Well, That's not gonna necessarily be your thing. So for you, what was it besides just general systemizing your business? Was it understanding systemization and grafting new people in, or was it something else that was the big moving piece for you that got the whole thing rolling?

The Journey to Understanding Business Numbers

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had no business experience, [: 00:33:00

ance of what was happening in: 2019

And I'm glad that he did.

Bart Solomon: I'm gonna be more nuts and bolts. , it was as basic as knowing the numbers.

her or not you're scheduling [: 00:34:00

You can't make the changes that you need to increase that without keeping track of how frequently you hire or fail to hire. You can't make the change to your hiring practices. And I literally, we just, we didn't know the numbers as we should have. So now it's amazing to me. I don't know I thought it was a.

Thought it was a bit hooey that if we just knew the numbers, we could make some decisions, but we can make the decisions when we know the numbers.

Seth Holliday: If our call getting your arms around actionable data.

Richard James: Yeah we hear that a lot, Michael, right? People are like, it can't be that simple. It can't be that simple. Just know the numbers and it gets better. But it's amazing how often that actually happens. By the way, I think you, you got our headline for us Bart the finance major Turned lawyer who didn't know his numbers,

Right.

Bart Solomon: true.

MPS: There we go.

But I, But I could do a mean [: 00:35:00

Richard James: Yeah, Yeah I bet you could.

Seth Holliday: The dancing boots is not gonna get.

Richard James: We can get the dancing boots in.

MPS: I I, I like that

boots and,

Seth Holliday: but we didn't do the hand puppets and now we will.

Richard James: Yeah. Okay. There you go. Damn puppets. At least you didn't have a

sock puppet. That

MPS: Hey, the good news is you guys gave us no shortage of headlines in this episode, so we appreciate that and obviously we appreciate you guys being willing to share your story and share some actionable tips and feedback.

Wrapping Up and Contact Information

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MPS: I think this was very valuable for law firm owners listening to this. So first and foremost, Bart and Seth.

I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing. I appreciate it.

Bart Solomon: you. You're so welcome.

MPS: Of course. And for the law firm owners listening to this, thank you. Thank you for investing your time in listening or watching, and we just ask if this isn't your first time listening or watching. And you've got some value from today, which there was no shortage of it.

et us know if you've got any [: 00:36:00

Thank you to the law firm owners listening.

Richard James: Yeah. Bart, and Seth. Hey, if anybody wants to get ahold of you, please don't give your cell phone number 'cause the head count that's listening to this is going up. But if they wanted to get ahold of you and, learn more about what you're doing, or maybe the charity that you talked about, Bart, what's the best way for them to do that?

Bart Solomon: Email with an email, personal email address. Be okay?

Richard James: That'd be great.

Bart Solomon: Sure. So it's, my first and part of my last name, so it's Bart solo@comcast.net. Happy to answer people's questions.

Seth Holliday: Mine is S Holliday. It's two L's in holliday 'cause I am special at some point s holiday at McMahanFirm, which is a mouthful, M-C-M-A-H-A-N, firm F-I-R-M dot com.

tening, whether it be at two [: 00:37:00

So appreciate it. Congratulations to what you've built. I can't wait to watch the next leg of your journey. And as always, let us know how we can be of service to you. I think that's the pod.

MPS: It's a wrap.

Bart Solomon: Thank you. Thank you.