Finding Balance Between Compassion and Profitability

MPS: [: 00:00:00

Richard James: And I'm Richard James. Excited to be here today. Michael.

MPS: Super excited, and we're joined by Attorney Don Golden. Don, welcome on.

Attorney Don Golden: Thank you. Glad to be here.

Richard James: Don Golden is another one of our EAY, entrepreneurial Attorney of the year finalists. Don, what year was that? Was it 28? 19 or 20? Which one was it?

Attorney Don Golden: I think: 2020

Richard James: That's correct. Yeah. I feel like you had to present during Covid, if I'm not wrong. Yeah. Definitely before Covid. Okay, good, good, good. So yeah, 2019 was the year you presented and, and so it was probably for the 2018 year. And it was great to hear your story and so I'm excited to share some of those insights cause you've got a great story. And you're one of those rare Attorneys that I've met through the years that you really had a business background [00:01:00] first and,

Attorney Don Golden: A little. Yeah.

Richard James: You became.

Attorney Don Golden: Yeah, I had an accounting degree when I started, so before I went to law school, I had an accounting degree, never practiced in accounting, went straight to law school, but I had the fundamentals of business and I also grew up working in a supermarket all through high school and college.

And I really felt like that provided me with a good basis to owning a consumer firm, especially a consumer law firm catering to consumers. Yeah.

Richard James: Nice. Okay. Well, Michael, I'll let you kick it off for us.

MPS: Yeah. And I have to say that's certainly the rarity. As you know, we've interviewed a lot of people and most of them start with. An opposite format and background. So it's cool to see the different perspective of things, but Don, let's break the ice a little bit for everyone. Why don't you lead us with something that's unique about you or something people wouldn't normally know about you?

in professional sports as a [: 00:02:00

So that's the big, that's the thing that I think is most unique about me, is I really spend my spare and free time in professional sports as a statistician, and I get paid for. It's a lot of fun. Good. It's a fun way to make a few extra bucks. I don't, but to be clear, I don't do it for the money though. I do it cause I love it. Just getting paid is a side benefit in my opinion.

Richard James: I show I always keep like a thousand dollars in my Venmo account. So that my wife, my E C I B, my East Coast Italian Bride thinks I get paid to play golf so that I don't get in so much trouble. By the way, something everybody might know about me is that I, if you're watching this on YouTube, I'm not actually orange.

We're gonna roll with it. We [: 00:03:00

But anyway, Michael, yeah. The idea of running your hobby as a statistician in professional sports, boy, that's not something you hear every day.

MPS: No. And I was so hoping you would share that, Don, cause I know that's something that's really cool about you and I mean obviously I've had the opportunity to hear some of your cool stories, some of the games you've been to. I mean, you even went out to spring training, I think in Phoenix this last year. Right?

Attorney Don Golden: Not spring training. I did the Arizona Fall league. I did a week in the Arizona Fall League. I do spring training in Florida though cause that's where I live. But yeah, I've done a two Super Bowls in the NFL, like four or five pro bowls. So it's been, it's been a fun journey. It's been, this will be my 17th year with the NFL, so, yeah.

MPS: Wow, that's so awesome.

Richard James: They ever, did they ever give you like a, I mean, a ring? I mean.

s won their first Super Bowl [: 00:04:00

So that created the opening that I slid into. So it was. And of course I didn't get a ring in the last Superbowl because up until about four years ago, we worked directly for the club. We worked for the Buccaneers. But about three or four years ago, the NFL took over the stat crews and now we work directly for the NFL.

So I still deal with the Buccaneer public relations department and stuff like that, but they're not my employer anymore. It's the NFL directly.

Richard James: They wanted a more of an arms length relationship with the stats.

. You know, and so it's more [: 00:05:00

Richard James: Hmm. Got it.

MPS: I just think that's an awesome little hobby to have and yeah, to Don to your point and nice little side benefit to get paid while doing something you love. I think that's pretty sweet. So I know you shed a little light on obviously. Some of your start toward law, but why don't you share your entrepreneurial journey?

Talk a little bit about that as a law firm owner, how'd you start? Why'd you get into law practice area? If you wanna share the whole night?

basically. How the right to [: 00:06:00

And it was just very interesting to me. And I got very interested in the law at that point of my college career. And I pretty much decided right then that I wanted to go into law. And, it was because I got excited about a book, really called Gideon Trumpet. And so I applied and got into law school and started as soon as I left.

As soon as I graduated, I started law school. And during law school I was working at a law firm as an intern. And it was an administrative law firm. They wrote brief. I was going to school in Michigan and so obviously the big business in Michigan is the auto industry and the firm that I was working for, their main role.

ublic utility law, you know, [: 00:07:00

And I was having lunch with one of the associates one day, and he told me about a friend of his that was a bankruptcy lawyer in Chicago, consumer bankruptcy lawyer. And he was telling me at how much he enjoyed the practice of consumer bankruptcy law. So I pretty much decided in my second year of law school that I was gonna be a consumer bankruptcy attorney.

And I took bankruptcy, bankruptcy courses in law school and stuff like that. And when I decided to move to Florida after law school. One of my friends, it's weird, I grew up in Maine, but I had a friend in Tampa. His mom knew a lawyer in Brandon where I am now, and he was a Bankruptcy / Social Security Disability / General Law Firm, and she hooked me up with him.

I met with him a couple times. He decided to hire me and I told him I wanted to do bankruptcy work. He said, I already got an attorney doing my bankruptcy work, so he hired me to do social security. I did social Security for about six months, and the bankruptcy lawyer gave his notice and I said, I want that.

He slid me right over into [: 00:08:00

So I worked for him for about three years and you know, I kind of felt like there was no path really to advancement and so I took another job at a big bankruptcy mail firm, you know, where I did all the litigation work. So I was in court all day, every day doing their litigation work. And from there I made a good connection with the chapter 13 trustee who then I went to work for the chapter 13 trustee.

at I was ever gonna reach my [: 00:09:00

So that's when I decided that I would do that. And my wife was a teacher, you know, so my goal my first year was to make enough money, or at least at my goal, was to replace her income so that she did not have to work because we'd had one child and she was pregnant with our second child.

And so I really felt like if I didn't do it right then, if I didn't do it before we had our second child, I wouldn't be in a financial position where I could do it. So I made the decision that I was just gonna take a leap of faith and start my firm. So I gave my notice at the chapter 13 trustee's office. I started getting, because I was connected in the community I was getting referrals right away.

And I filed my first case before I even finished my notice at the chapter 13 trustee's office. I met the guy at a Cracker Barrel. A hundred miles away because it was a referral. And I talked to him, signed him up at the Cracker Barrel and filed his case the next week before I even finished my job with the trustee.

So I started off with a [: 00:10:00

Richard James: That's great. Did you, I'm curious, so you knew you weren't gonna make enough money to reach your financial goals being the associate. Okay, got it. You generally saw what the pay scale was. Was there a clue when you were looking at some of the other law firm owners that there was money to be made there? Or did you have enough sense from your accounting background to do the math to go.

I could be profitable enough on these cases to do this. I mean, how did you make the decision you thought being an owner was gonna make you more money? Cause you and I both know bankruptcy law firm owners that are paid less than what they'd make if they took a job somewhere else because they don't manage their businesses really well.

So I'm curious, did you know that or did you just have a feeling or how did that work for you?

learned a lot from him about [: 00:11:00

He did the consultations and signed them up, and then from there I did everything else. And so I knew exactly what we were doing, what we were collecting. On every case. I knew how much we were bringing in. I knew how much the we had one person doing the casework for us. One, you know, kind of secretarial type person.

I knew what she made, I knew it all cause I was in charge when he was gone. It was him, me and another lawyer. And it was, I was his second in command pretty much right away. So I knew everything that was going on in the firm, so I had a good idea and I was always told. That the firm should make, like the owner of the firm should make like a third.

en if those numbers were off [: 00:12:00

Richard James: That's good. That's great.

MPS: Very interesting. Yeah, yeah. That's really cool. And I feel like that process of working in that firm kind of led to the leap because the knowledge gap was shrunk, right? You were able to learn kind of what the general basis would be and what taking that leap would look like.

Richard James: Yeah well, there was no question that he was an expert at that point. Right? Like so knew, you knew the practice area like the back of your hand. At that point. You had done enough cases, you had enough experience, there was no fear of the getting done.

Attorney Don Golden: Oh, absolutely none. I mean, I was I didn't become board certified until after I started my own firm, but I was, well, you just, you had to be in practice five years and I wasn't in practice for five years yet, really, you know, so I was comfortable because I had so many different experiences working in the small firm, working at the big firm, doing all the litigation work.

had to fix all the problems, [: 00:13:00

They just wanted to make the money, you know what I mean? They wanted to get the case in, get the money because that's what the owners wanted. The owners didn't do any of the work in the firm whatsoever. They just ran the firm. Or ran the firm.

Richard James: It's one of the things I love about you. You understand the importance of profitability in business, but you really are in this game because you truly care about your clients. And not that every other attorney doesn't but you are not just in it for the money.

Don, that is an honest to goodness statement about you there. There's a passion behind what it is that you do.

Attorney Don Golden: I truly believe that. I really do. And I, you know, I know that most of the lawyers that I talk to are in the same boat. They really, they wanna make a living, but they do want to help people. And I think that that's great and I think that's the way it needs to be. But definitely not everybody is that way.

fortunate, but, you know, it [: 00:14:00

Richard James: Yeah.

MPS: Well, and that obviously just makes the experience with them so much more powerful, right? Because now they know they've got an attorney that cares about their situation and what they're going through. So definitely props you on that the passion bleeds through, which is fantastic.

I'm curious, Don, because you've grown. I love hearing the story of how you got to where you started, but they don't call it an entrepreneurial journey for nothing. Right, there's highs and there's lows on the journey. So for you, what was one of those low points on the journey where you were able to take something out of it and learn something from?

oo late for that yellow page [: 00:15:00

So I had to really grind it out with newspaper ads and various things like that. But once I got my yellow Pages ads going, you know, I started out doing pretty well, and then 2002, this guy knocks on my door. I'd been in practice since 19. No, I just opened the firm actually just basically just opened the firm and he knocks on my door, just cold, called me and said, Hey you need a website? And I said, what the heck is a website?

And he started telling me about it. I'm like, yeah, okay. I website sounds good. So I got a website and it was, I got, I'm in Brandon, Florida and I just kind of always, I visioned myself. I wanted to own the branded market. Brandon is the largest unincorporated area in Florida, so we are just outside of Tampa and we have, it's a big population here and so I wanted to own the Brandon Market.

And that was my competitive [: 00:16:00

But I had yellow pages. I had my website, I had multiple oil wells as you call it, you know, and so, I started doing really well. And the first big issue that hit me was, I think it was around 2015 really? Cause it was just a upward path. We just grow and grow and grow and growing.

2015, by then everybody had a website, you know, everybody was doing Google Pay Per Click and things like that. Google changed the algorithm and I just got absolutely crushed. Because at that point I think I had pulled out of the Yellow Pages, to be honest with you. Cause I'm like, the yellow pages aren't where it's at anymore.

so much money off the website: 2015

And it [00:17:00] took me a long time to figure out, I'm like, wow, we're not getting any cases. We're not getting any cases. But I wasn't doing a good job of tracking where we were getting the cases from. So it took me forever to realize that there was a problem with the website. And that was the first time that I actually had financial difficulty really, you know? And I'm like, oh boy, we got a problem here. So,

Richard James: Yeah, because in bankruptcy specifically it's one of those case areas that many have this problem, but bankruptcy, PI, social security, if you start getting le stop getting leads in cases today, you don't realize the financial pain for that for 6, 7, 8 months. And so, you know, you might not. It's easy to get numbed into it cause the cashflow is still coming in and the cases are going down and you go, ah, something's wrong, but I don't really know what's up.

blem, you're six months away [: 00:18:00

So that's a problem for a lot of law firms that have delayed cashflow when it comes to their type of practice areas. So whether they take payments on their cases or they have contingency based cases, one way or the other. The folks who take retainers and bill hourly, they have less of that problem.

But you know, bankruptcy is certainly one of those that do have that problem. So, yeah, I mean, you wake up and here you are. So what did you do?

Attorney Don Golden: I mean, I met you first off, that's the year I met you. I went to the Dave Ramsey. Dave Ramsey had a big event that I went to, and you spoke at it and I met you, and that's when I really started to learn about. How to, I knew how to run a business in the way that I knew how to, I really felt like I was an expert in client relationships, you know, because of my retail experience and stuff like that.

intments do we get? How many [: 00:19:00

I'd never heard that before. And that's the first time I started focusing on that. And that's where things started to come to light to me. And I started realizing that where the problem was and you know, so actually, I'm sorry, I forgot the question. I was, I went off.

Richard James: No, it's okay. So, yeah, no, I said what did you do? But just as a quick one up, Michael, you don't know this, but we got, maybe you do know this, but Don and I, I'm sure you were there, Don, we got to go to Dave's house. Remember that?

Attorney Don Golden: Yes, yes. It was awesome.

Richard James: That was pretty cool.

MPS: I hearing that.

Richard James: Yeah.

MPS: Didn't know Don was also there, but I remember hearing you went to Dave's house.

Richard James: I'm sure most people on this call get to know who Dave Ramsey is and guess getting to, he was such an amazing host. He was holding umbrellas for everybody. He was pouring wine for everybody, letting you smoke his cigars. I mean, him and his wife were so gracious. They have this gorgeous home on top of this hill and Franklin, Tennessee, and they opened up their home to all of us and we really had a great time.

That was wonderful.

ys tell from that. You know, [: 00:20:00

And so it was right then and there, I said, this guy's a genuine man. You know, he's a true person. You know, so it was a really cool experience.

Richard James: Yeah, it was a cool experience and I'm forever grateful that I got to meet you. You and a couple other guys that I was able to meet there too. It was wonderful. That was a great opportunity for us. It's unfortunate that he doesn't do that program anymore.

But sorry, Michael, I interrupted you.

'm curious was that moment in: 2015

Attorney Don Golden: This is what I think people need to understand when you are an entrepreneur. It's like a rollercoaster. You're gonna have ups, you're gonna have downs. And when you fix one thing and things start going really well, you can kind of get comfortable. Right? So I figured this stuff out a little bit.

In: 2015

You a lot of, I think in business there's, you're one problem away from another could be you know, huge issue. And so there's been multiple AHA moments and usually it's because I've made a mistake, you know, and I got complacent or, you know, just did something wrong. You know, it was lost focus. And it's easy to do especially when you start making a little bit of money.

And it's nice to get kind of [: 00:22:00

I had grown to the point where I had Two other bankruptcy lawyers and an attorney that did personal injury worker's comp, social security disability. So we were doing really well and I had really stepped away, like I was in the Freedom Group at that point. There's a Freedom Group program, you know, where you can take a full month off.

You know, you're at the point in your career where you have enough money in the bank, you know, a certain amount of money in the bank, certain amount of freedom that you have that you can take away from your firm. And I was at that point and I was. For the month of July, I was, I didn't come into the office one time, you know, I didn't really do anything, like, I didn't do anything fancy, but I took the whole month of July off and I really took the month off, you know, and the firm just, it went great.

. We were still making money.: 2019

Because I got comfortable in the freedom position that I was in. And that was another kind of AHA moment is like you can get to a point in your career where things are going really well. But you have to stay focused on the details. And if you don't, you're gonna have a backslide. And we did.

So we had a little backslid. And one of the problems was, is that I think you correctly identified that I really care about our clients and I want to provide them with the best possible service. And when I wasn't involved day to day as much. And I don't think, I think I made a mistake in not building that culture in the firm well enough before I stepped back.

here. And I think that some [: 00:24:00

And it wasn't really until I came back in that got corrected and I take, I do not blame them at all for this. This is not my staff's fault, this is my fault because I did not properly. Set them up to succeed, number one. And I didn't appropriately create the culture that I wanted, you know, and I wanted them to reflect to our clients, you know, and that was another mistake that I made that I've learned from.

And I'm hopefully gonna get back to that point again, but not make that same mistake where, you know, I am gonna stay conscious of what's going on in the firm at all times and maintain the culture that I want for the firm and that's my goal going forward. But that was another setback.

d that we got almost as low, [: 00:25:00

And I made another mistake here where I just got really conservative, really conservative when Covid hit. I was frankly nervous. I had no idea when business was gonna come back around. I kept thinking, it's gonna come back. It's gonna come back. And it really wasn't coming back.

So I got just so conservative. I wasn't spending any money really on advertising, cut all my advertising down, you know, and that I saw some of my friends. In the program grow. And I wasn't growing, I was still going back. And I really believe it's because I just got too conservative and I did not wanna spend any money on advertising or as much as I should be spending.

So that was another mistake. And it, and you know, I think I've fixed that now and we're starting to come back and I'm happy about that. And things are, things are going really well again. But there's been several times in my journey that I've made mistakes and although there's been events that have kind of contributed.

o recover or I had as big of [: 00:26:00

Richard James: So talk about value bombs that you,

MPS: I was gonna say value bonds are dropping left and right here. Whoa.

Richard James: Oh my goodness.

Attorney Don Golden: I mean, honestly, if you don't. Look at things. I believe we have control over things. Right? You know, I don't think necessarily things just happen. I think that we have, we kinda get to control our fate and we control our fate for the good, and we control our fate for the bad, I believe. You know?

And if things aren't going well. There's a change that we need to take, to make things go better. And if we don't take that change, if we just stay back and have that same mentality of, oh, woe is me, things aren't gonna get better. You have to take action. You have to take steps to move yourself in the direction of progress.

here you're at. And I really [: 00:27:00

And he was okay, you know, he did fine, but he wasn't that successful, you know, and he just thought I was lucky. And I'm like, no, man. I'm not lucky. You know what I mean? And I make stuff happen, you know? But the flip side of that is you also have to recognize when things aren't going well, that it's also your fault.

You know, think when things are going great. It's not cause you're a superstar, you're just working hard and you're doing some good things, and when things go bad, it's not because you're unlucky, it's because you're doing something wrong. You know, even if there's a change like Covid, you know, I did something wrong when Covid hit and that's why I struggled a little bit more than some other people.

You know? I still don't think I struggled as much as other people, you know what I mean? But people that I surround myself with had some success.

ecause it is what it is. You [: 00:28:00

Is what a lesson in being humble. So thank you for that. And, you know, the sign that we should all hang over our businesses is never take your hand off the knob. You know, that was that one. I think presentation I gave that that slogan stuck, and it seems to be the thing that's stuck in everybody's head.

Never take your hand off the knob, because when it's so easy to get comfortable, as you said, but you know, Don, you made a conscious choice to be conservative. And you know, it's possible that the guys who weren't conservative and decided to invest it could have not worked out.

ng geographically or growing [: 00:29:00

But you it's not like you did nothing. What you did do is you strapped on the rubber gloves of your firm, or you strapped on your rubber gloves. You got in the trash. You start looking through the trash to figure out what was working and what wasn't working. You got personally involved, you started selling consults again to make sure you maintained your clothes rate.

You started perfecting your advertising that you were doing and getting a better job with it. You started paying attention to making sure your cases were getting filed and so you were filing more cases and saw that as a part of your sales process. I mean, you did a lot of things, so don't be hard on yourself about the one or two things you didn't do, cause you did a lot of things that helped you build a really strong foundation.

And now that bankruptcy's turned the corner again and we're starting to go up. Your firm is perfectly poised to be able to take off because of those things that you did and the lessons that you learned. So, you know, congrats to you for taking those lessons and doing something with it.

Attorney Don Golden: Thank you.

're speaking to the law firm [: 00:30:00

Attorney Don Golden: So this is probably, I don't know how many attorneys you guys have interviewed, but you, this may be a common answer, but my favorite book has been "Profit First", to be honest with you. "Profit First" put me in a position to have cash to, I mean, I still have cash in my profit account, you know, to this day, even though there was a couple years, I wasn't all that profitable, you know, and I still have a good chunk of cash in there.

So, although, you know, the firm hasn't been making a ton of money, I still have cash to operate with, and that's because I believe of the lessons I learned from the book "Profit First" by Mike Michalowicz. I'm a Mike Michalowicz fan. I like a lot of his books, but "Profit First" is probably my number one.

ming up in July at the event [: 00:31:00

He's a recovering. Criminal attorney and I talked to him about Mich and he goes, oh yeah, Mich and our good friends, we swap stories all the time about how we write our books. And so I found that interesting. I think he's gonna do a really good job in July. I think we're gonna enjoy his content as well, so.

Attorney Don Golden: Here's something I want people that are watching this to know too, is this is how much I believe in taking control of your destiny, right? So I decided after I had read a few Mike Michalowicz books, and he spoke at one of, I think it was after he spoke at your first event, the first time he spoke at one of your events.

I started listening to his podcast all the time. So I was listening to the prophet first podcast every, all, every week, and I said, I wanna be on that show. So I just wrote him an email and sent it out and I ended up getting on the show. So I was interviewed, I don't know if you know this or not, but I was on Mike Michalowicz "Profit First" show just because I decided, I made the decision in my mind, I'm gonna get on that show.

arned from Blaine. You know, [: 00:32:00

And then I started working on my pitch, you know, and working on how I was gonna get on the show. And I followed the directions in that video and. It worked, and I got on a show, so that was awesome. I, it was like one of my highlights, so.

MPS: Yeah. And, I love the fact that you took the power in your hands and you made it happen. You know, you reached out, you did what you needed to do to get on the show. I think that's super cool. Don, what's got you most fired up today? Whether it's in the practice personally. What's got you excited?

really excited, I mean right [: 00:33:00

It's not a change in the law. It's the same standard is still there. You still have to prove undue hardship to discharge student loans and bankruptcy. But the Department of Justice made a change in the way they were going to defend the cases that were filed by consumer debtor attorneys. And I think that that's gonna open the door for us to help a lot more people.

Discharge student loan debt. And I'm excited to start doing that. I've got one case that we've got signed up now. We're working towards getting ready to file, but I firmly believe that student loan debt is one of the biggest problems we're gonna face as a country soon from an economic standpoint.

And having some mechanism to be able to help consumers that are struggling with it, that excites me. So that's what I'm.

those people that you helped [: 00:34:00

Whatever it was, you helped them. But yet they still had left a hundred, $200,000 of student loan debt that was still sitting there, even though you helped them get that freedom that the United States law allows for it exempts student loans and so now they don't really get the fresh start they want.

I mean, they get a fresh start, but they still have to carry that burden. And so giving the ability to give somebody a real financial hardship. For one reason or another, the ability to get free, shake free, or change the terms of the student loan situation. That's gonna be pretty exciting. So it's a game changer in the bankruptcy industry for sure.

onna be the ones that really [: 00:35:00

Attorney Don Golden: Yeah, I'm excited about it. I'm anxious to see what's gonna happen and how it develops.

Richard James: Yeah, me too.

MPS: Sure. So Don, please, you do not have to give out, and please don't give out your phone number. A lot of people listen to this, but if someone wanted to get in touch with you to just learn a little bit more about the story or reach out and say, great work, outside of the comments that we'll have people post on here, what's the best way for them to do that?

Attorney Don Golden: Through the website. You, you? Is that what you mean? Like.

Richard James: However you, do you want them to email you or do you prefer? Just go through the website and email your generic email. What would you like them to do?

Attorney Don Golden: Oh they can go to the website, www.BrandonLawyer.com as I said earlier, or I mean, they could also email me directly at DonBrandonLawyer.com.

hose mistakes too. This is a [: 00:36:00

MPS: I'm leaving. Fired up. So, I mean, you know, it's a good episode when everyone that's asking the questions is leaving fired up too. So Don, I appreciate that. And for those of you law firm owners that are listening to this, we've got what we call the gentleman's agreement around here. And, what that is if this is not your first time listening or watching to the show, but you're getting value from this, all we ask for in return, we put our time, money, and resources into putting this podcast together.

We just ask that you make sure you like you comment down below. Let us know if you have any questions for Don and whatever platform you're listening or watching on. Hit that subscriber follow button and turn those bell notifications on, and if you find value, share it with your peers.

That's all we ask for in return, but Don, I just want to thank you. I think this was a super helpful episode for all the law firm owners that are listening to this great work and lots of value bombs dropped as we said.

your heart, so thank you for [: 00:37:00

Attorney Don Golden: Well, thank you. Thank you for having me.

Richard James: Good. All right. That's a wrap.